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School officials get earful on budget cuts
Parents, students air frustrations at town hall meeting
Richard Brian
Dr. Walt Rulffes, superintendent for the Clark County School District, speaks during a budget meeting Tuesday at Western High School.
Wed, Nov 19, 2008 (3:41 a.m.)
Next meeting
- Tonight, 6 p.m., Chaparral High School, 3850 Annie Oakley Drive
The Clark County School District (CCSD) will stream Wednesday's Town Hall meeting at Chaparral High School live on its Web site, www.ccsd.net.
More information
Visit www.ccsd.net/finance or call 799-5445
Every morning at 5:20 a.m., Henderson resident BreAnna Morales, 17, boards a school bus to head to Canyon Springs High School, where she is a junior in the Leadership and Law Preparatory Academy. She rides for an hour and half before arriving at 6:50 a.m. — 10 minutes before classes begin.
She's worried that buses to the magnet schools will be eliminated as part of cuts the Clark County School District is making to its budget for the next biennium. Were that to happen, she would no longer be able to attend Canyon Springs, she said.
Morales brought her concerns to schools Superintendent Walt Rulffes at the Tuesday town hall meeting at Western High School, held to get feedback on where parents and students would prefer to see cuts made should the School District's budget be cut. Another was to be held tonight at Chaparral High School.
Rulffes is expecting the district will have to make $120 million in cuts per year for the 2009-2011 school years, or 14 percent of what the district receives from the state. That equals a loss of $370 per student each year, or 6 percent of the district's total $2.1 billion annual operating budget.
On top of that, school officials said, they may need to cut another $75 million from this school year's budget.
Since last December, $133 million has been cut by putting off expansion of empowerment schools, full-day kindergarten and gifted and talented education, and by canceling new programs such as assistance for students struggling with proficiency exams.
The next round of cuts would come from programs that would directly affect students, School District officials said.
Principals at every school were asked to meet with parents to discuss a 3.5 percent cut from every school's budget. Eighty-six percent of the school budget goes to pay salaries and benefits for employees, and the remaining 14 percent is for supplies, textbooks, activities and utilities. The Legislature already took back the half of the textbook money for this year.
There will be no way to trim 3.5 percent without creating larger class sizes, Basic High School Principal David Bechtel said.
Class sizes in the School District average 33 students per class, with elementary schools smaller and high schools larger, Penny Ramos-Bennett, spokeswoman for the School District, said.
The national average is 20 students at the elementary level and 25 students at high schools.
"We don't want to see students added to classrooms," John R. Beatty Elementary School PTA President Natalie Carter said days before the forum. "The classrooms are already overpopulated. It's not worth it."
The meetings provided parents with an opportunity to present their pleas directly to Rulffes, as well as Jeff Weiler, chief financial officer, Joyce Haldeman, executive director of community and government relations, and many School Board representatives, some of whom were in the audience.
Every family was also given ballots for the top three things parents want to keep and cut, which were left in boxes in the back of the room.
Among areas suggested to be eliminated or reduced were athletics, block scheduling, empowerment schools and one of the region offices.
"Our kids can't afford to have cuts," Gwen Campbell, who lives east of Summerlin, said. "We have to keep programming for our kids."
Some parents expressed concern that the School District was putting the brunt of the task on their shoulders, and others said they thought the decision had already been made.
"We have to at least plead our case," Henderson resident Laurie Stapleton said.
Terri Janison, who represents Summerlin on the School Board, said parents who think school officials aren't listening are wrong.
"We will make the decision, but why wouldn't I want to listen before I make that decision?" she said.
Sheila Lambert, who lives north of Summerlin, was appreciative of the opportunity to reach out to the district leaders.
"As a parent, I feel the decision hasn't been made yet," she said. "This is the first time I feel I've had a voice."
Frances Vanderploeg can be reached at 990-2660 or frances.vanderploeg@hbcpub.com.
Discussion: 58 comments so far…
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Why not cut administrators' 24 paid vacation days. Teachers do NOT receive paid vacation days, so why should administrators? And please do NOT tell us that administrators work harder than teachers. If you want proof of that, go to any CCSD school. You will find the principal, the assistant principal, and the deans in their offices sitting on their fat rumps. If you can't find them in their offices, please check the staff lounge; they are in there drinking coffee and reading the Las Vegas Sun or the Review-Journal.
If the administrators and teachers had any incentive to keep costs low there would be no cuts today.
They have no incentive and there is no accountability. That is why we always here about the "need" to raise taxes...because they can't (and never will) get their act together over there.
There's KDR talking out of his rear end. Tell me, how exactly do teachers (the one's teaching in classrooms) keep prices down or have any influence on costs. Additionally, why should those foot soldiers have any fiscal accountability considering they have to buy their OWN supplies, decorate their own classroom, and often have to bring supplies for the students too with their own money? Classic. Lay off the teachers KDR. Your constant snipes against them are stabs in the back. They work one of the most difficult jobs, and it is only rendered more difficult by non-teachers like you trying to play armchair general.
This is not the time to throw our children's education and their futures "under the bus". It's time to demand that our Legislators step up and enact equitable and long-range tax policies. This requires a broad-based tax initiative that provides revenue from ALL profitable Nevada businesses, including an increase in gaming taxes. The solution it NOT to cut education at any level in Nevada as we already rank below any reasonable standard of academic measurement. Nevadans get what they pay for and investment in education is well worth the price paid for our State's long-term economic growth and the continued upward mobility of the residents of our communities.
Nevada is one of the few States where businesses utilize our infrastructure and workers, and then take their non- or low-taxed profits to invest in ventures outside our State. What better time - during an economic downtown - to "fix" our inequitable tax system and create a reasonable and consistent revenue stream for not only education at all levels, but our roads, parks, community living spaces that add to the quality of life in our communities.
For our workforce to compete in a global economy requires the reshaping of our agrarian-based school model to one that meets the demands of a 21st-Century world. Nevadans need to support public and private initiatives which will insure that our workforce will not be marginalized or obsolete in the decades ahead. Despite economic woes, leadership is needed at the legislature and in business to plan Nevada's future.
I can save CCSD some big bucks -- right now. CCSD administrators receive 24 paid vacation days a year. Rulffes has mentioned there are 1,300 administrators in the school district. I believe that number is low, but let's take him at his word -- 1, 300 administrators. Multiply that number by 24 and the total is 31,200 days. Now let's say each administrator receives $300.00 a day. That totals $9,360,000.00 a year is being shelled out as paid vacation days for administrators. On the same token, let's subtract the total amount paid in vacation days for the 18,000 teachers in this school district. That total is ZERO. Multiply that number by the total amount paid in vacation pay to those 18,000 teachers and the total is ZERO. So where can we cut nearly $10M and not lose one single administrator? Let's ask Walt that question. I bet he won't have an answer. I bet he might say that we need to "reward" these administrators with something tangible. My answer is simple: You have a job to do. You get the month of July off -- enjoy it.
Let me preface this first by saying that I am not a Teacher. That being said, I believe that Teachers are underpaid as it is. Obviously this is merely a statement of opinion, and in no way really addresses the article, but these are the people whom are responsible for educating our children, and will be affected regardless of what cuts are made to the school districts budget in one way or another. These are also the individuals whom, despite their relatively low pay, often have to take money out of their own pockets to buy supplies for their classrooms and their students. Rulffes in his infinite wisdom has mentioned eliminating the two hundred dollar gift card teachers receive at the start of the school year to provide necessary items for the classroom, and to purchase supplies for the entire school year. Would this be anything close to resembling fair to either the teachers, or the students?
Our school district is already ranked among one of the worst in the Country, can we afford for our children, the future of our Community, to allow our schools to digress? What is our Governor doing to promote our childrens education? Making more budget cuts every time we turn around. Why are we not looking for cuts within government agencies, or how much is being spent to house the ex-first lady of Nevada in the guest house of the Governors mansion? What costs were incurred in the investigation of a certain politician and a hooker/bartender in a steak house parking garage? And speaking of overpaid beurocrats, what of the overabundance of so called school district "Administrators", and all the so-called "Assistants"? Why are we looking at penalizing the kids, and the teachers, the front line of education, and not trimming the unnecessary fat in the shape of overstaffed administration? Maybe instead of penalizing the kids, we should look at penalzing those far more responsible. Let's start with our Governor, and then move right along to finding another Superintendent, one who will fight for our kids, and their education, and not for keeping all the high cost positions in place.
"I believe that Teachers are underpaid as it is"
Nevada is ranked 25th in k-12 teacher salaries.
Nance, thank you for the input. I would like to add that I did not mean Clark County School District Teachers specifically, my reference was to all Teachers of grades K through 12 in general. Next to Parents, teachers are the most responsible party for the education of our Children, and the possibilities they will enjoy in their future, based upon thier intelligence and capabilities.
I do not think Nevada will be able to solve your perceived problem of "low" teacher salaries anytime soon.
Nope, unfortunately not. At this point in time they will continue to be asked to do more, with less, and for less, if Gibbons continues to have his way.
Thank you Rick for stating some common sense. The teachers and students are the frontlines, and they don't have a lot of sway. An above comment said that the teachers needed to bring accountability to the funding process, but I'm stumped on that one. The teachers already take low pay for long hours. They pay for their own supplies, their students' supplies, and decorate their classes on their own budget. That to me sounds pretty accountable. And while Nevada teachers might be making average teacher pay, I think in general the pay needs to be higher. Everyone tries to say how important teachers are, but they won't pay them a wage to reflect that importance. This is a bad comparison, but why is it that we pay hedge fund manangers so much to do so little, but we don't pay our teachers enough to reflect how fundametally important they are to our youth and their/our future?
How does the floor mopper at Wall Mart help control costs?
Its called profit sharing.
Give people an incentive and they find away.
Or maybe you have little faith in the ingenuity of our teachers?
Our tax structure is not broken:
http://npri.org/blog/pictures-are-worth-...
http://npri.org/publications/new-taxes-s...
SPending more money will not improve education:
http://npri.org/blog/does-more-spending-...
http://npri.org/blog/what-if-we-increase...
If you want education to improve try education reform:
http://npri.org/publications/no-magic-be...
If you want to stop budgetary shortfalls try spending limits and government accountability reforms:
http://npri.org/publications/spending-li...
http://npri.org/blog/solving-nevadas-bud...
Ok NPRI mouthpiece/unofficial/official spokesman. This has got to be a joke. Teachers are underpaid, and you want to make them to tighten the system. Your bizarro Atlas Shrugged mentality is showing. These people have enough on their plate trying to get kids to learn without having to fix a broken system on their free time. Since you seem to have all the answers, why don't you be a teacher and fix this problem. In any case, most of your points are already in a deficit considering you still don't acknowledge yourself as an NPRI employee/whatever. KDR you are disingenuous personified.
BTW, other people shilling for others officially do claim their affiliation (ie when there was a piece against Blackwater, a Blackwater rep posted and posted his name and position.)
Basically learn some netiquette or don't bother posting.
Red,
People are paid by what they produce. A teacher works with 25-30 kids and does not really produce much wealth, nor is it all that difficult, nor do current demands require that much innovation. In reality, a lot of people can do that job.
Its not an insult to teacher, I used to be a teacher. Lots of capable people doing a somewhat easy job, that isn't all that productive, that also has a high degree of stability naturally means lower pay.
A hedge fund manager makes lots of money because he or she manages lots of wealth with skill. If they can't perform at least average they lose their job. If they can perform above average they can earn better pay.
Teachers have no incentives.
Now what about Hollywood Stars. Why do you think they get paid so much? Is it fair?
Yes, they get paid $30 million a movie peoples lots of people shell out good money to go see them in those movies. Their star power can make or break movies, thus make or break the wealth generating potential of that movie.
I'm all for merit pay. Reward the good teachers, get rid of the bad ones. Then we'll see their productivity increase. Also, larger class sizes, put more children at the feet of fewer teachers. This would allow us to drastically increase the salary of teachers attracting the best.
Today American education attracts the bottom 25% of college graduates.
If the Average class size in Nevada was 50 students we could afford to pay teachers (Starting) $80,000 a year and attract the top 2% of college graduates.
So do you want to put few of students before lots low quality teachers (on average) or more students before fewer high quality teachers?
We can't have both...unless we increase funding by an additional $2 billion(triple the sales tax anyone?)
...says the person going by "RedFerret" why can't I have a rap name too cool guy?
Assuming I was an NPRI employee (an interesting preoccupation on here"I guess this helps many of you cope with not wanting to read and digest material which might suggest your POV is incorrect), who just wanted to be a rap star like Red Ferret, what would the response be when I posted NPRI material.
Red: "Oh that is just right wing crap, the only reason why you say that is because you work for NPRI you right wing zealot."
...at least by having my own rap name, and people not knowing who I work for, I'm able to take away one logical fallacy you might commit, so at worse people like you just say "Oh NPRI is just right wing crap" instead leave out the part about the way I reached my conclusions (so instead of two fallacies you only commit one).
You can thank me later.
Assuming I was an NPRI employee (an interesting preoccupation on here"I guess this helps many of you cope with not wanting to read and digest material which might suggest your POV is incorrect), who just wanted to be a rap star like Red Ferret, what would the response be when I posted NPRI material.
Red: "Oh that is just right wing crap, the only reason why you say that is because you work for NPRI you right wing zealot."
...at least by having my own rap name, and people not knowing who I work for, I'm able to take away one logical fallacy you might commit, so at worse people like you just say "Oh NPRI is just right wing crap" instead leave out the part about the way I reached my conclusions (so instead of two fallacies you only commit one).
You can thank me later.
I looked up "netiquette" and found one interesting rule "respect others right to privacy" ... nothing about identifying yourself.
Red (don't want you to miss this),
People are paid by what they produce. A teacher works with 25-30 kids and does not really produce much wealth, nor is it all that difficult, nor do current demands require that much innovation. In reality, a lot of people can do that job.
Its not an insult to teacher, I used to be a teacher. Lots of capable people doing a somewhat easy job, that isn't all that productive, that also has a high degree of stability naturally means lower pay.
A hedge fund manager makes lots of money because he or she manages lots of wealth with skill. If they can't perform at least average they lose their job. If they can perform above average they can earn better pay.
Teachers have no incentives.
Now what about Hollywood Stars. Why do you think they get paid so much? Is it fair?
Yes, they get paid $30 million a movie peoples lots of people shell out good money to go see them in those movies. Their star power can make or break movies, thus make or break the wealth generating potential of that movie.
I'm all for merit pay. Reward the good teachers, get rid of the bad ones. Then we'll see their productivity increase. Also, larger class sizes, put more children at the feet of fewer teachers. This would allow us to drastically increase the salary of teachers attracting the best.
Today American education attracts the bottom 25% of college graduates.
If the Average class size in Nevada was 50 students we could afford to pay teachers (Starting) $80,000 a year and attract the top 2% of college graduates.
So do you want to put few of students before lots low quality teachers (on average) or more students before fewer high quality teachers?
We can't have both...unless we increase funding by an additional $2 billion(triple the sales tax anyone?)
The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) has estimated the cost of "prosecuting" a war against Iraq at up to $9 billion per month.
http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekl...
In 2008, its sixth year, the war will cost approximately $12 billion a month, triple the "burn" rate of its earliest years, Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph E. Stiglitz and co-author Linda J. Bilmes report in a new book.
First our government sends our money to Iraq instead of to schools in America.
Then they send your kids to fight and kill and die in Iraq.
I'll bet the Clark County School District could have used some of that money to educate OUR children instead of being used to kill their children.
When has anybody ever heard of a time when our schools didn't have a money crisis?
Of course an uneducated populace is easier to manipulate into assinine schemes such as KDR81's foolishness.
Give us a break!
If they reduce teachers salaries as part of the massive budget cuts, many good teachers will leave the district. We can not survive on the pitiful salary we are getting now let alone survive pay cuts. I am a teacher and I have a Masters plus 32 and I still can not support my son as a single parent. I am so worried about the budget cuts and how next year will be for my students who need so much. I already feel bad because I could not find any resources to help a student get new glasses. Her glasses are broken in the middle of the lense and the arm is totally gone. She straps yarn around her head to hold her glasses on her head. I just want to cry each time I see her walking down the hall. It's the children who will suffer when good teachers leave the classroom because we can not afford to put bread on our tables. Administration needs to make cuts. Everyone at my school suggested that they cut the admin jobs out and down as much as possible. Then I think they should cut the FASA and Nurse down to very part time. Then, make due with the textbooks we have or go to online ebooks to save money. I would not mind if my classroom was a little bigger, but I can not live if they cut my pay. I can not feed my son with any less than I am making now. How many administrators go to bed at night stressed about buying food? Juggling bills and deciding which prescriptions we REALLY need. I love teaching, but I am getting tired.
First, my name isn't a rap one. I have no idea where you got that idea, except maybe inferring I'm young or black or both. This in term implies you are borderline racist or have something against rap culture. In any case, I'm not a huge fan of rap, and the name only stems from my online gamer tag. Second, it's just hilarious watching you post 6 times without any response. I would have to question what you do with your free time. It also speaks of a certain amount of monomania. Man I never even saw NVMakz post that much.
Third, you have a lot of gall to say teaching is easy. While it isn't dangerous (usually), while it isn't extremely intellectually demanding, it is still one of the toughest jobs to work. Which grades have you taught? I've taught every age level, and any of them are tough ones to deal with on a day to day basis.
In conclusion fringe right wing bizarros are stabbing our educators in the back with their worthless screeds telling teachers to work harder for less.
So it's just coincidence that a user on wikipedia with the handle "KDR81" edited the page for NPRI, renaming it as "libertarian?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?titl...
Or coincidence that a user on wikipedia with the handle "KDR81" heavily edited the page on the Nevada Budget Crisis, adding in the official viewpoint of NPRI?
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?titl...
Huh.
I'm sure it is just coincidence.
ksand99 - Nicely done. I think the youngsters on the Interwebs call that "Uber pwnage".
It's nice to see posters who not only see through the B.S., but are also willing to take the time and effort to actually prove it. Thanks for the example.
I just feel the man is disingenuous and tries to cover his tracks. It's just bad all around. To top it off the man has the gall to say teachers work easy jobs, and they need to do more to help out.
"the man has the gall to say teachers work easy jobs"
That's only because he never paid attention in school. He never noticed that they were trying to teach him something. He was too busy already knowing everything.
I've taught every grade level too, including a full time at 9th and 10th grade.
You want to do what is right, and I appreciate that. But all your solutions are wrong, and at best, half thought out. Just looking at the teachers is wrong. Just looking at the amount of money that is being spent is wrong. Assuming that teacher pay and the amount of money spent on education will improve education for the children is wrong.
Raising teacher salaries under the current way we run education won't improve education, or the quality of teachers.
Yes, teachers jobs aren't difficult. Can it be stressful, yes, I got white hair at 22, but a job that can be stressful at times, or even difficult, or sometimes hard, doesn't mean you deserve more money. People should be paid by how productive they are, not how many mouths they have to feed, or how far in debt they are, or what profession they have.
If you disagree then why should a teacher get paid more than the guy scrubbing the toilets? I'd say he has the crappier job.
And most teachers are not underpaid. Some are even overpaid. They have a great PR machine propagating a great 30 year old myth to make the teaching profession sacrosanct.
On top of that teachers have the benefit of working for government, so the government doesn't have to worry about quality of product in order to get more money. THey simply have to make appeal to people like yourself who will easily buy into the argument.
either because,
1) you haven't thought deeply about the issue or 2) you are too scared to suggest that some teachers might be overpaid now...because having opinions like that, means people like you will name call dissenters.
KDR81, you dare to make a comparison between a Teacher and someone who scrubs a toilet? If you were to ever make a comparison like that in my presence I'm not sure that I would be able to render a response that would not result in my being arrested for assault and battery. My Sons, and probably 99% of the young Men and Women whom attend our schools, are NOT the equivelant of toilets. And additionally, Teachers are not the equivelant of Janitors. Our Children spend their days under the tutelage of Teachers, and not some Janitor. Your posts are either intended to incite hostile responses, or you are so lacking in your concern for our Children and their education, that you should take a minute to self analyze why you are either so anti-child, or so anti-teacher.
In your your all knowing mind you're probably already formulating a response to my post, full of statements of how I too am wrong about everything I'm writing, so I'll just post a couple of things that prove my points:
You contradict yourself in your own posts, only to fit an opposed position to everyone else. In your last post you state "Raising teacher salaries under the current way we run education won't improve education, or the quality of teachers.". However, in your post of 11/19/08 at 4:33 p.m, you state "If the Average class size in Nevada was 50 students we could afford to pay teachers (Starting) $80,000 a year and attract the top 2% of college graduates". You also state "People are paid by what they produce". Please KDR, do tell, what does a Doctor produce? What does a Fire Fighter produce? What does a Police Officer produce? Would you like to tell them they are all over paid as well? And please, tell us all unequivocally that there are no bad Doctors, or no bad Police Officers.
Yes, you are correct in some Teachers being overpaid, but show me any profession which has nothing but a 100% highly proficient, highly motivated staff. Is the compensation enjoyed by all the personnel comensurate to the capabilities of only the lesser capable few?
A great deal of what is posted within these comments is opinion, yet you are so quick to point out how anyone who has a differing opinion from yours is wrong. You'll notice how directly above the little entry box it's says "Post A Comment", not "Post A Fact", not "Post A Proveable Statistic", and not "Please refrain from Posting Opinions". You already put up a quasi-defense in your last statement about calling you a dissenter, well guess what, because of your own ignorant statements, like the one I already mentioned comparing Teachers to Janitors, you deserve to be called a few choice things. By telling people their opinions are wrong, which you've done on several threads in addition to this one, you deserve to be called a few choice things.
In closing, right, wrong, or indifferent, there's MY opinion.
Teachers rightfully formed into unions because of people like KDR. Plain and simple.
This is yet another reason I am glad I moved from Vegas. I was tired of a crappy education for my children. Many times I have called the district office to talk to someone about a problem no one there seems to have and answer. I have asked why certain school have on thing and others don't to be told they don't know why. My question is why are you still paying the CCSD Administration their pay. They do not do the job they were hired to do. The schools are some of the worst in the nation. You want to cut your budget Mr. Rulffes start with your pay and all that work in that big office. Don't cut back on education!!!!!!
Rick,
Please read again. There wasn't a comparison or an insinuation of similarity between teachers and janitors, you have made an incorrect conclusion. I was merely pointing out the fallacy of claiming that teachers should be paid more just because of their profession.
Your responses suggests you think very lowly of janitors and that at best they are paid just enough (if not overpaid since you are willing to start a fist fight over it).
On to the next topic, of teacher salaries.
1) To say that under our current system raising teacher salaries won't make a difference is not contradictory to suggesting that if we could increase class sizes we could afford to pay teachers more.
Why? Because under our current system we restrict ourselves to smaller class sizes rendering the ability to pay teachers considerably more impossible (unless we raise taxes significantly or cut massive quantities of social programs).
Next topic: why people are paid what they are paid.
People are paid based on what they are capable of producing and how valued that product is. Doctors are paid a lot, in part thanks to a government sanctioned cartel arrangement (AMA) and in part because they are highly skilled people who have taken up years of education to become experts in healing the human body. People are willing to pay a good deal of money for their services (and they'd still make a good salary if the government wasn't busy insuring they were paid more than the market might allow).
Fireman don't do much these days thanks to sprinkler systems, and they might actually be overpaid ($220,000 a year for a chief fireman, and almost 70% of Las Vegas area fire men make over $100,000 a year). That is a lot of money for the skill required, how often they risk their lives, and how much they actually spend responding, with dozens of other police officers and paramedics to old people falling over, or cats stuck in trees. Private sector fire services (now largely extinct thanks to fire unions) showed that fire services could be just as good and pay fireman a lot less. We also have lots of volunteer fire departments around the country.
When I say people are wrong I always try and provide a good reason (see above). Usually people are too busy throwing around the claims about ideology, ignoring my comments, or making irrational and logically fallacious conclusions.
Redferret,
Teacher's unions were formed because governments are fat, rich, inefficient, and have monopsonistic qualities (they are a large purchaser of labor). As such they are ripe for unions to suckle from and survive.
Remember unions can rarely survive when competition is a driving force in the economy. That is why unions are only successful when competition is stifled"ie government workers and highly subsidized and regulated industries in America (Detroit).
Rubbish, utter rubbish. Unions thrived back in the day, because companies were so competitive that they kept labor so low.
And I'll still say that with backstabbers like you saying teachers don't work hard and don't do enough, the teachers deserve a union to protect their interests. Or do you forget that teachers also go to school for a number a years to learn how to cultivate the human mind.
And in any case Rick was right to castigate you for your sloppy analogy between teachers and janitors. Next time think before you type.
btw,Unions even get government to restrict competition between themselves.
How can people really expect the Union to be in their best interest when they won't compete with each other for your money.
Ever wonder why union membership can only be changed once a year under a 1 week open window period?
Not happy with your union,too bad so sad, you're stuck.
Actually red,
As competition mounted, especially foreign competition thanks to growing free trade, and growing wealth around the world (allowing foreign nations to compete) we've seen unions steadily fall in influence.
by the way, most teachers graduated from the Education Department, which sadly, is made up of the bottom half of admitted college students. Education pedagogy has failed miserably and those Ed Departments should be abolished.
All I am saying is, why are there CURRENTLY more non-teaching jobs in the Clark County School District than teaching jobs? WAY OVER half of the CCSD's payroll goes to people who are not even in classrooms.
And...I know KDR all ready more than got his, but 50 kids to one teacher!?!?! Are you kidding me? How on earth would you control distractions, or give extra attention to struggling kids, or give more challenges to kids who excel? All classrooms are not created equal with all students having the same capabilities. If you had a class of 50 we'd see a much worse effect than what we see now...smart kids being bored and challenged kids giving up. Give me a break. Moron.
Anna,
Which is why we need greater parental choice. Let parents and the students decide what is best. These massive school districts put one philosophy out and hope it works.
Many students will do just fine with a great teacher and 49 other classmates. Some will not.
That is why we should have vouchers or charter schools to offer alternatives.
We should also end social promotion. That would take care of the problems of smart kids getting bored...we won't promote those who can't complete grade level work.
Try thinking harder instead of calling peoples names.
First, correlation is not causation. Second, maybe because, there are backstabbers saying teachers are lazy and need to do more for district, most smart college grads don't go into education. They know it's a fools game. No money, bad hours, and people like you trying to turn the public against them. Teachers work hard to give the best results they can. I don't fault them for an imperfect system, or administrators more worried about their own salary versus teaching kids.
If anything this discourse has taught me that teachers need to go on strike and then maybe this country will value them more. Seriously teachers, strike for a better life, because no one appreciates you and won't do anything for you. Rely on yourselves and strike for a better life, or simply relocate your job. Do something else, because with people like KDR trying to run things, you'll never get a living wage and you'll always be mocked, belittled, and told you need to produce more.
My bad, I didn't know moron was your name. I won't call "peoples names" anymore. I apologize.
The public loves education thanks to some wonderful myths about it...like teachers being underpaid. Few people wish to callenge this myth, or others, and the ones who do are attacked.
See the logical failures of Anna above.
I rarely see teachers mocked, they are almost sacrosant...people like you want it to be that way so you can push government spending. Have you ever wondered why spending increases always go to teachers, policeman, fireman, children, and the elderly...and even though corporate welfare increases, they never say "WE NEED A TAX INCREASE TO PAY BASS PRO SHOP!"
Are all teachers underpaid. No. Not by anymeans. Some are, some arent, and some are overpaid. The average teacher in Nevada is paid about $45,000 a year plus benefits. That is the above the MEDIAN income in Nevada.
Is the system broken. Yes. We rely on teachers altrusitic values and don't provide any incentives for them to do even better. Merit pay and bonus plans can help do that.
Charter schools, maybe a few.
School vouchers are rubbish. You want to spend tax dollars on private schools? Private schools don't have to take people, don't have to accommodate all disabilities, and don't have to have teaching credentials. Not to mention that most private schools are small and parochial (ie religious). Not to mention the fact that most private schools are at capacity already. So if you throw those doors open, who gets in first. Additionally genius, private schools DON'T supply lunches or books for anybody. Who'll buy those books? Additionally what about the private religious schools that don't teach evolution? I mean really, is this your inane answer, let the market take care of it. So now schools have to "compete"? Will that include wasting money on advertisements?
KDR, you're doing a great job of proving some of my points:
To my "you dare to make a comparison between a Teacher and someone who scrubs a toilet? If you were to ever make a comparison like that in my presence I'm not sure that I would be able to render a response that would not result in my being arrested for assault and battery"
You respond: "you think very lowly of janitors and that at best they are paid just enough (if not overpaid since you are willing to start a fist fight over it).
Where do I mention Janitor compensation? Twist my statement to fit your needs.
To my: "you dare to make a comparison between a Teacher and someone who scrubs a toilet?"
You respond: "you have made an incorrect conclusion"
It is my conclusion, and it is my opinion, based on what you wrote: "If you disagree then why should a teacher get paid more than the guy scrubbing the toilets?" And this in itself is also further additional proof of another thing I stated in my Post: "By telling people their opinions are wrong, which you've done on several threads in addition to this one, you deserve to be called a few choice things". I'm sure that I'm not the only one who came to the conclusion that you were in fact comparing Teachers to Janitors, because more than likely that was exactly your intent.
In one of your posts, you state: "If the Average class size in Nevada was 50 students we could afford to *pay teachers (Starting)$80,000 a year and attract the top 2% of college graduates*". Attract the top 2% of college graduates, implying a better quality teacher. But then in a post shortly thereafter, you state: "Raising teacher salaries under the current way we run education won't improve education, or the quality of teachers". Please, do tell, how is this not contradictory?
In one of your posts, you state: "People are paid by what they produce", and in another you again state: "People are paid based on what they are capable of producing and how valued that product is". A Child that walks out of a classroom where a teacher has furthered that childs education is an awesome product, and if your opinion differs from that, than you place little value on an educated society.
As far as my stating: "In your all knowing mind", I would refer you to your own comment, on another thread, of: "Honestly I wish fewer people voted". It goes to show that you not only think so highly of your own knowledge and capabilities, it also shows your contempt for your fellow citizens, who no matter what, have the right to vote.
KDR, all I can say, is that in my opinion, no matter what your twisted rebuttal is going to be, because I'm sure you'll have one, you are not a nice person, you are NOT all that, and you show little compassion or concern for your fellow Man. Watch out for Karma KDR ... it may just run over your Dogma.
KDR,
I challenge you to tell us where you've taught school, that you can honestly say teaching is an easy job. You say you've taught every grade and even full time in 9th and 10th grades? Does that mean you were a sub who came in and handed out the papers the teacher had already prepared for you and called the office if you had any discipline problems? The licensing to teach all those grades would require a whole lot of time at those "easy" teachers college programs.
The only "teaching" you could possibly do with the numbers you are suggesting would be handing out worksheets that were easy to grade quickly, requiring no real writing or thinking, failing to truly engage the students. True teaching is an art that requires constant learning and refining. That is why in order to maintain a license, teachers are required to take a minimum of college level courses every 6 years at their own expense.
KDR, go to your local school and volunteer as a teacher aide or mentor and spend some time in some real classrooms, then say the job is easy and class size doesn't matter.
Red ferret,
First, having the ability to deny people is actually a benefit, because attendance would be a privilege. Thus students would be more likely to be on better behavior.
Nevertheless, research shows that private schools are actually more willing to take special needs children than public schools. Vouchers for special needs children have been higher than the cost of educating the children (But lower than the public school cost...thanks to inefficiencies) so private schools are more than eager to take special needs children.
In fact, some states have been running defacto voucher programs for special needs students.
As far as your concern about religion I wonder if its not clouded in bigotry. The big problem with creation vs. evolution is that we have a massive public schools system, 1 side wins the other side loses. Private vouchers would help stop that as parents can decide which school will teach their students the best stuff.
Kinda like how we get to choose our own college"
Rick,
You are the type of person that causes me to slap my forhead, sigh, and wonder if the frustration of talking with you is worth it.
Why don't I try it a different way.
Why should teachers be paid more than janitors?
What should teachers be paid for?
What are the reasons we pay people?
"KDR, all I can say, is that in my opinion, no matter what your twisted rebuttal is going to be, because I'm sure you'll have one, you are not a nice person, you are NOT all that, and you show little compassion or concern for your fellow Man. Watch out for Karma KDR ... it may just run over your Dogma."
That is called projection, its for people who are unwilling or incapable of dealing with something they dislike or disagree with. Its also a logicall fallacy.
Your opinion is seriously flawed and borderline moronic. First what accredited university sponsors creationism? Answer: 0. Second I went to religious schools for most of my life, and I'm tolerant of religions, so I'm not a bigot, unlike you.
Second, school should be mandatory, because unlike you, all other kids didn't know everything since birth. Kids don't know what they want, and if they did they don't know how to get it. That's why they are kids. If they are informed enough to drop out of school responsibly, why don't we lower the voting age to 13?
ps, your cut and paste job is showing, since there's that " at the end of your post. There's no way in hell you accidentally held the shift key and hit ' to make a period. So where've you been ripping your screeds?
LvMachead,
I've done substitute teaching including long term, full time"yes very real teaching at high school (my own lesson plans, doing IEPs, my own tests and quizzes, writing my own lectures, and creating my own games to teach students about certain subjects), and more.
In fact, while subbing just after graduating college, I was, more than once, offered the chance to do real teaching. I remember doing Physics for 3 days. The teacher left me formulas to write on the board but I ended up not only remembering the stuff by actually teaching the kids...well 12th graders.
Some of the students actually commented on how they learned more from me than the real teacher (A comment I heard often). Needless to say, subs who come in and just work from the sheet get run over by students if the students realize the sub has no idea what they are talking about. That didn't happen to me. And you know, I had a pretty good physics teacher at my own public high school because there are good teachers, I've never denied that.
About handing out worksheets, a lot of licensed teachers do this...especially in K-7 education. That brings me to a new point. Having a license has no bearing on your ability to teach students. Teachers are required to get a license to reduce the number of teachers to artificially boost salaries"and the requirements are often filled in Union run class settings allowing the unions to get direct public funding. This is a headache for teachers that should be eliminated.
Having a license does not make you qualified to teach.
If class sized mattered so much, South Korea wouldn't beat us so bad in international exams. They do so with classrooms double our own and with half as much money per student.
Red,
That is not true, every college teaches creationism. Every single one. Perhaps you've never stepped in a religious studies class.
You see in college, you get to pick your own courses, your own studies etc. You don't have to take a course on creationism, but its there. Just like you don't have to take a course on evolution (in biology)...you can take earth science and study rocks instead.
I've been cutting and pasting from word to try and catch more spelling mistakes.
KDR, why don't you slap your FOREHEAD a little harder, maybe you'll knock a sense of reality into your brain. No matter how you try to rephrase your nonsense, it remains just that. This will be my last post addressed specifically to you, as you are obviously living in your own little world called denial.
Question 1: Why should teachers be paid more than janitors?
Answer: In your own defense of Doctors you mentioned the required education as a partial justification for their pay bracket. I suppose you consider the four year degree required of Teachers, and the costs incurred in obtaining that degree, as nothing of consequence. A Janitor is responsible for the maintenance of a facility, NOT for the education of our future business leaders, Doctors, Lawyers, etc.
Question 2: What should teachers be paid for?
Answer: Teachers are paid to educate our children, to deal with the day to day issues which arise in their classrooms becuase of the many varied personalities and capabilities they encounter every single day.
Question 3: What are the reasons we pay people?
Answer: Unlike you, who repeatedly states that people are paid for what they produce, I believe that people are paid for the responsibilties they have. And there is hardly any responsibilty greater, in a professional environment, than that of educating our children. The responsibility of helping our children become an educated member of our society capable of making contributions as they more forward in life.
You wrote: "That is called projection, its for people who are unwilling or incapable of dealing with something they dislike or disagree with. Its also a logicall fallacy". I respect almost everyone's opinions KDR, one of my favorite sayings is we agree to disagree, but you do not. You would rather tell anyone and everyone that has an opinion contrary to your own that they are either misinformed, or wrong. It is not a logical fallacy, as I see very few people whom agree with you on anything in these posts, and even go as far as calling you a Moron. Not that I disagree with anyone that would call you that. Your constant denigration of people and their opinions on this site makes my statement, or any other calling you out in any fashion, well deserved on your part.
The average teacher is paid $45,000 a year in Nevada, no additional pay for the quality of teacher.
Do you think teacher pay should be raised across the board?
Given that most kids don't know what they want to do until later in life, how can we justify paying K-12 teachers more, since kids what they'll be until mid-20s. Shouldn't we be raising the salaries of their vocational mentors and college professors?
If highly educated children are the reason teachers should be better paid, shouldn't we lower their salaries since only 57% of our children in 4th grade can read at grade level. That doesn't sound like high productive value.
Why shouldn't janitors be paid more? If someone didn't clean the bathrooms and take out the trash the kids would be studying and learning in piles of crap. And they'd get sick, and some might die. So janitors create a sanitary learning environment. Isn't their hard work worth rewarding more? Afterall, they're helping the children too.
(calling me a moron is a logical fallacy, in fact the specific name for it is ad hominem. I don't denigrate people for their opinions, I provide counter points or facts to their opinions. People like you can't stand disagreement and don't know how to handle it).
If people are paid based on "responsibility" and the greatest responsibility is teaching children (arbitrary at best) does that mean we better pass laws to reduce CEO pay, movie star pay, lawyer pay, so on and so forth.
Or should each teacher be paid $35 million a year? (Why stop at paying them $135,000 firemen salaries).
If teacher's are so valuable, why make laws to restrict the number of teachers?
I'm hearing a sound ... sounds like flatulence. For those unaware, that would be a mixture of gases released through the anal orifice, usually smelling similar to feces.
Oh, my bad, it's just KDR opening his mouth. Hmm, what a fitting comparison, in all aspects.
Jeez, kdr, ya got the gang stirred up today.
Please, get out of the house more. There's a whole world out there you seem to be uniquely unaware of.
Guess what, 25th in the nation isn't all that hot. Teachers are typically paid less than garbage collectors and often have advanced degrees from good universities. 35k starting isn't all that spectacular when many could be making much more in any other fielf should they choose to.
Jerrey, the advanced degrees have not been proven to improve the quality of the teacher's effectivness or the students ability to learn.
Teachers start at 35k because union rules prohibit merit pay.
kdr, the expert on everything.
I'm sure school districts dissuade teachers from obtaining their masters and doctorates because KNOWLEDGE is an innefectual tool in the educational arena,and hence, not cost effective when paying educators. Gotcha.
And those darn pesky unions, they are AGAINST good teachers! They just represent the bad apples, right? We need these professionals to PROVE they are worth a darn. I'm mighty skeptical. They probably don't even care.
You betcha.
I think what everyone needs to keep in mind when reading posts by KDR is this, you can't fix stupid. I am not even a teacher yet, I am currently in my junior year of college, but I have experience. I work for the school district now, in a Special Education classroom, and let me tell you it is not an easy job. The job that I have and plan to have in the future is a hard one.
I am also a member of the union, which is a good thing!
While I did not want to actually comment on anything that KDR said, I did find one thing that I think needs to be discussed. "Or should each teacher be paid $35 million a year? (Why stop at paying them $135,000 firemen salaries)" Should teachers be paid $35 million a year? No, that is just stupid. Now if a teacher holds a doctorate degree then yes, they should be paid $135,000 or maybe even more. While going to college students can rack up a lot of debt, my classes alone this semester are going to be over $3000 and those are undergraduate classes. I personally know a teacher that is $30,000 in debt, due to getting a Masters and when she is done she will get only $5000 more a year, then a brand new teacher? Thats fair? I think not! Thats it though, I am going into this field knowing that I will bot be getting paid that much. However, teachers SHOULD NOT have to struggle to make ends meet.
Well maybe you shpuld hear an actual student respond and this might stop you so called "mature adults" from sending angry notes back and forth like you are high school girls. First off sometimes speaking to much makes you look very stupid and you start to controdict all of your points and make no sense at all. Second read and understand what one another is saying before you start pointing out points that you mis-interpreted and arent what the other person was saying. So let me tell you teachers are very over-paid and under-paid it seems like all the good jod teachers that me and my friends learn from the most are the under-paid and the other teachers that me and my friends can not understand at all and acquire no knowledge from are the over-paid. So maybe an evaluation of teachers should be enforced more rather than the so called evaluation at my school where an administrator walks in sits there and texts the whole time and lets the teacher sign the paper. The reason why nevada is ranked so low when it comes to education is because the so called adults with authority do not authorize any of it. I mean sometimes i truly feel like i can run my school better i can teach better and i can actually educate me and my young generation better than the people with the degree. so quit acting like your my age and grow up and when your ready to talk like adults then voice your opinion and you wont sound so UN-EDUCATED and STUPID!